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2 10 12 https://metzarchive.org/files/original/91f0c72874c61f8581c4ba5150548b74.pdf 86951d311017f4a76b704fb48d78415d PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Raul Valdez December 7th, 2020 This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. Burniston​: I thought we might as well introduce ourselves. I’m Mary Margaret and we've been chatting over email a little bit. I'm a senior at UT and I’ve been involved with this class since August now, and we’ve been working with the teachers and community members trying to create a digital archive for Metz, kind of like a community remembrance box for the school. Prakash​: I'm Rishikia, I’m a junior at UT Austin, also in the same class. I think we really wanted to reach out to artists because our section of the project actually works with the Arts and Metz, and we’ve been exploring that we and how those things are interacting together. So it's really great that we get to talk to you and we have a few questions we’d like to ask you. So if you could go ahead and introduce yourself as well Mr. Valdez. Valdez​: My name is Raul Valdez. Would you like me to say anything else besides who I am? Burniston​: We’d love to know a little about where you are from and where you went to school, that sort of stuff. Valdez​: I actually went to Texas A&I and then I went to grad school right where you're at [UT Austin]. I've been working at a lot of schools, all the schools in the east side, and a lot of the other ones in Austin. A lot of them have my projects—I don't say my murals because they were actually done with a whole bunch of help. I’d say there were three hundred kids or right around that number—probably more than that—that helped. And Metz was one of them—the ceiling, especially, in front of the cafeteria. There were about 300 kids that worked on that. And of course I’ve got Murals at Zavala, Sanchez, Brook, and of course there’s also too many all over town, including Cook and places way over there on the other side of town. But really I’ve worked all over town. Burniston​: That’s awesome. So how did you first get involved making Valdez: ​Well it all started when I got this idea of doing a public art. I see people doing a mural, maybe a sculpture, something out of their heads that they wanted to do and put somewhere. And sometimes it was something that people scratch their head and say “what is that thing?” with a sculpture or even some of the murals and things that they did. People wouldn’t relate to them real well. I said I want to do real public art. This was way back in the seventies—74, 75—the real public art. I'm going to go to a place and I'm going to actually do a survey, canvas the 1 �community, get ideas from there, and then use that as a subject matter, and then get people to participate. You know I found out that one of my favorite grades, by the way, is third grade. These guys, they are ready to learn, they're more focused. I've had this kind of experience with multiple grades, but these guys, I can teach him how to render, how to do faces by themselves, and all that. So anyway jumping forward a bunch of years, we did this kind of mural exchange project, the Aztec Cobra Mural Exchange. There was this desire for people to get along, for kids to get to know each other, and hopefully, you know, do something together, which is one of the strong points of having collaborative projects for kids; they actually have a cooperative effort in doing something. They don't have to be artists or anything, I mean anybody can be an artist, and if you don't want to do art they can do the research, or they can make the references, help with some of the labor, but get anybody involved. We even had some of the custodians and teachers involved in the painting. You know anybody can be involved and be a part of it. I was surprised that people would come later, like years later. Now I see old people walk up to me and say “hey, remember me? I was in third grade and I painted with you.” So anyways, they still remember working on a project like that for years. The Aztec/Cobra Mural Exchange was a thing about painting a mural at Sanchez, and then painting one at Metz. Then we had a parade and brought the murals together. We met halfway at a middle school. From there the kids took them [the murals] to their schools on trucks. We unloaded them [the murals] there, and set them up, and then we had a little party. A kid would talk and describe their experiences and all that. I remember one of the reasons or purposes that the kids would describe was “BFF, we’re all best friends forever.” So they gave each other the presents. The mural that’s there in the hallway at Metz was painted at Sanchez. There’s one at Sanchez that was painted at Metz, and it’s bigger, by the way. They painted a really big one there at Metz. And the one that was painted at Sanchez was two panels, I think 8 by 8. It’s a painting of Dolores Huerta, who happens to be a friend of mine. Cesar Chavez—no he’s not in that. You know, Cesar Chavez actually visited the school. This was way back in—what year was it? I don't remember, but they dropped them off with me, and I drove him around town a little bit. I drove him to Metz, where he was going to do a presentation. As soon as he got off, the media was there and everybody stormed him. I was honored to have him ride around with me, and I took him to the school. So anyways, he did a presentation after that. 2 �And then we marched the next day, or two days later I believe. We had a big march. I played the guitar and marched alongside him and played some field songs. I am a blues man, and I used to do Rock back in the old days, but I decided to go in another genre and do field songs and movement songs that they used to do back in those days. It fit right along with what I’ve been doing for so many years. I was always a supporter of the farmworkers and the Chicano movement from the 60s, 70s. So anyway that had a lot to do with trying to inspire, or at least give the kids a sense of pride because, well, I’ll use the term anti-racist, because there is definitely a lot of discouragement to being proud, you know. One of my mottos that I came up with—and it’s on my website—is “it’s impossible to be proud when you don’t know who you are.” That was definitely the case with kids in many cases—most cases—didn’t know who they are, where they came from, because they started learning about Columbus and George Washington. In many cases, they learned nothing about their own background, their own history, and the history of their people and who they really are. I did a lot of presentations. I’d say hundreds of presentations in schools, both in individual classrooms and whole assemblies in the gym or cafeteria with all or most of the kids in school. I remember kids would come to me and say, “Woah mister, that’s who I am! That’s my history! That’s me!” They’d come out all proud, because they’d never heard it, they never got it in the educational environment. Things have gotten a little better, but not enough in many ways, but at least there’s a little more inclusiveness for kids to relate. You know, it’s not all about Columbus. You know, how can you discover a continent when it’s inhabited already? That kind of thing. I’d give them another perspective, and they’d be blown away. So anyway, I did a lot of those things in the 70s mostly, early 70s through the 80s. I kind of slowed down later on. But anyway, I used to do like 40 schools a year. Something like that, I remember it’d be a lot of schools would just invite me, they heard about it, and they’d keep inviting me. So anyway, a lot of that stuff started back then. And the purpose was all there, and I was glad to do it. That’s why I’d ask them for the subject matter, including everybody in the school—teachers, staff, custodians, everybody would get a chance to pitch in and give me their opinions. So anyway, that’s kind of a nutshell of the whole thing. And that’s really the essence of it. The most important things. Burniston: ​Thank you, that’s all really fascinating. I wanted to make sure—I’m not sure if our Zoom meeting is about to cut off. I might have a time limit on my account. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about the ceiling mural before we got cut off. 3 �Valdez: ​Uh oh. It’s not finished. I got a small grant, not a lot of money. A lot of these works were done for very cheap, very cheap. And some some for free. Some for less than free—it actually cost me; I’d sponsor it myself. But I felt so inclined and so motivated to complete these projects that I didn’t even care if there was money or not. I got lucky later on. People were actually offering me money and actually inviting me and asking me for directions. I got pretty close with the Texas Commission on the Arts. The City of Austin always pitched in a little bit, not too much. The Texas Commission on the Arts started being pretty generous, and actually gave me an Artist in Residence position that I could apply out of school. So anyways that’s how some of those things got done. The ceiling, by the way, like I said, was not finished. I threw a tantrum one day. I went there, and I had the scaffold on the side. I was doing this for cheap, you know, like really cheap. And like 300 kids had already painted on it. There's pictures somewhere, but my home burned, with my studio and home and everything. We had moved out into the country in Bastrop County. I was commuting back and forth to Austin. We were part of the wildfires of 2011, so I lost all those pictures and things. UT, by the way, has my archives, and they've lost them. They have like two articles, and one sheet of slides, and that's it. I gave them a stack of newspapers, letters, papers, pictures, all kind of stuff. They’ve been misplaced at the Perry Castaneda Library in the archives, so anyways they're gone. They’re there somewhere, but they can’t find them. But anyway, I didn’t finish it because one day I got there and the scaffold was torn down. I said, “Wait a minute, who took the scaffold down? I was going to work today.” I had put it over in the corner out of the way, put yellow ribbon on it. The kids were very good; they didn’t climb on it or do anything. So anyway, I would put it up, then roll it over to the side out of the way, and like I said put yellow ribbon around it. But one day I got there and it was taken down. They said, “Oh yeah, the president of the PTA took it down because they were having a meeting.” So what? It wasn’t in the way, necessarily. So I put it back up and I started working again, got the kids over here, started working on it again. And then I came back a second time and it was taken down again. They said, “Oh yeah the PTA guy came by and took it down.” So anyway, long story short, the third time he took it down, I said “oh man. This isn’t right.” So anyway, I worked again—third time—put it up three times. Fourth time—I just packed it up and left. I said, “Nah, it’s too much, man.” I figured I was doing all this for cheap. I actually didn’t make too much money on that. They gave me some supplies money, some expense money, and that was it. 4 �But anyway, I loved doing it. It was a great thing working with the kids. I’m sure they still remember, because, like I said, I run into them every once and a while. So anyway, I never did finish it. I said, “Man what kind of appreciation is that?” Not that I do it for appreciation, I’m not saying that. But to take it down three times? I told the principal, “Tell him to leave it up.” It’s not in the way. Kids aren’t climbing on it; they’re not messing with it. They’re actually being really good and respectful about it. So anyway, that’s a short story about that. All those planets were supposed to be painted. It was like to be a learning prop. A learning tool, reference. I’m supposed to be an educator too. I taught college for 12 years. I did 4 years at UT, by the way, at the International Office, working with Iraqi students. It was a State Department project, sponsored by the State Department and UT. Anyway, it was on social justice and creative activism, the class that I did there. But I taught at ACC for 12 years. I’m not much of an educator, you know. I’m not much of an artist either. I’m kind of like a very little of each, so I try to be complete by doing as many things as I can, because I’ve got too many interests. Anyway, I’m rambling, so how about another question? Burniston: ​Yes, thank you, that was all really fascinating, and I’m so sorry to hear that about them taking down your scaffolds for the mural. Prakash: ​This is all very fascinating. I actually did a mini project in class about the Aztec/Cobra Mural Exchange, and I had no idea that the one in the school was actually painted by Sanchez. I think we have a couple more questions. Valdez: ​Have you seen the booklet? The little booklet? Burniston: ​Yes, so we have that all scanned— Valdez: ​I did that, by the way. Oh I need to have that! I’d like to print another one, because I’ve got two copies, but I’d like to have some that I can give away, because I printed so many. Burniston: ​Definitely. Valdez: ​I did get a grant for doing that project. I actually had enough money to put together the booklet on InDesign. It was the first publication I ever did, in terms of a little booklet like that. I found some other artists that I invited to be part of it. I think it was a beautiful project. I remember we did some press work on it, and nobody showed up, no press at all. But I thought it was such a great idea. It should’ve been covered. People should’ve found out about it. And thanks for doing the presentation, by the way. 5 �Burniston: ​So that booklet will actually be featured in our exhibit on the arts. We made it into PDF form, so it can all be online. When our archive launches tomorrow, you should be able to access it, and we’ll definitely credit you. Valdez: ​This should tell you a lot about my work, and why I do it, and how it’s done. Like, my murals aren’t signed. I don’t have my name on them. Neither is that booklet. My name isn’t on it at all, and I did the whole thing. It’s not about me, and that’s the important thing that I teach kids when they work with me. I said, “First thing you gotta remember is it’s not about me. It’s not about you individually, it’s about all of us, because we’ve got to work together, and we’ve got to cooperate. You’ll see that if it’s something that you can’t do, somebody else can. We all pitch in. What we can do best, that’s what we throw into this. And it’s not about me.” So anyway, I’ve practiced that so anyway, I practiced that, you know, since the 70s, and I don't sign my murals, even when they are mine. Maybe I'll start this year. I’m working on one now. Burniston​: So, you talked a little bit about your process and how you survey the community and create the mural based on community input and everything, so I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about what that process was like with elementary school students, and sort of how they came up with the theme for this mural and the different layouts of them. Valdez:​ Well, I'll tell you what I'm always surprised—it's not always, not anymore. But I remember being surprised that they came up with some brilliant ideas, you know. I'm always impressed. I've always been impressed by that great idea they come up with. And like I said, third graders always beat out the fifth graders. The fifth graders are already getting a little bit loose and distracted with stuff, you know, and third graders, I found that they focus a little bit more, you know. And so anyway, and process, by the way, is the main thing. It's the final product.The mural itself is not as good as what the process was. And that same practice of, you know, completing something cooperatively. And kids always get along and behave themselves when they work with me, which is not an easy thing to say, but it's the truth, you know, they actually want to work. And sometimes I pulled from classes and I go, “OK, who's going to be working now?” And the teacher decides, or the kids, or everybody raises their hands, and they come along with me. So they're all willing to work and behave themselves and they want to come and do the right thing. So I've had very good luck with that kind of attitude. Their attitude is always good. Teachers tell me, I tell them all these guys were great, especially this person here, “what that kid, man, that kid can't even stand still in class. You know, I mean, he's always, you know, or or she's always jumping on top of her 6 �desk or doing something.” And so, anyway, I've had a lot of good luck with that kind of stuff, with the cooperative behavior, you know, and and actually learning. And I also incorporate science and a little bit of math. Applied mathematics in measuring and dividing up the space. I give them a very simplistic or simple application of the golden mean that the Greeks came up with as far as having measurement that applied to nature. And so anyway, that's how things are measured and composed. And the composition itself is just devised like that with mathematics. And then of course, they do the history and they go to the library and do the research and history, math, science, anything, whatever, you know. And of course, when they give me these ideas that they want to paint about, I go, “OK, well, what do you know about it?” And said, “well, I know this, but not too much.” They go to the library and go find the librarian for help. And sure enough, you know. So anyway. That's the process that I'm talking about, because the final product is nothing compared to what the process was, and kids are actually proud, you know, because they know who they are. All of a sudden. Or at least have a good idea, a better idea of what they had for. Burniston​: Thank you for sharing that with us. It’s all really fascinating and it's great to hear more about that process. One little logistical question I wanted to ask you is in our exhibit, we're referring to your different murals, like the ceiling mural. Is there a specific name you would like us to refer to it as? Valdez: ​You know what, I don't think we ever named it. It was going to be something like Cosmic something or I can't remember. Kids were talking about the cosmos or something when they decided to and I think that came up. Well, I mean, I can go on a lot. I was thinking of something about when I forgot what I was going to say. I make all these points sometimes and sometimes I forget them. Burniston: ​Feel free to always shoot me another email if there's something else, or if there’s something that we didn’t cover that’s important. Valdez: ​I could even send you an email or something, but yeah, that'll be great if I get it, get another. It's something I left out because there's plenty I can leave out. I actually do seminars for four or five hours sometimes. And so anyway, I put out a lot of information, probably partly miscalculated and not that accurate, but anyway, I put it out there anyway, whether it's true or not, I don't know. But I've been learning. You know what? That's the most important thing. I tell you what I'm learning from you know, you're not hearing anything and all that. I am convinced that I really am because it's true. It's always good when you teach. 7 �You learn that when you learn the most. And I found that out teaching college to you know, it's you teaching say, oh, wait a minute, I did learn something when they taught it to me. I didn't pay attention, but now I'm teaching it and I gotta pay attention and learn it. But they say “if you can't do, you teach.” And so anyway, ah, I've been lucky that I've been able to do and teach, and I make a living doing art, and actually did quite well for a while, but I actually wanted to teach it. So I called a friend of mine and they hooked me up and I started doing the gig at ACC back in, ooh, a long time ago. Back in eighty something, eighty eight or eighty nine. And I taught there for about 12 years. I think till about two thousand nineteen ninety nine, something like that. Burniston: ​Well, thank you so much. I think we've learned a lot, and I think we've pretty much covered all of our questions. Definitely shoot me an email if there's anything else you'd like to add. Valdez: ​It means a lot that somebody is curious and wants to know more about all these things, especially since it's getting destroyed. No matter how hard we struggled, and how many marches we had, and how many “defend our schools” and “save our schools,” and all this other stuff, and working with the kids. This kind of stuff still gets, you know, stepped on and thrown out the window. Look at Metz, for example. It’s not in that bad of a shape, that that could still serve as a school for many more years. Maybe they should have left the old school and called it historic, what was it like a hundred and five years old or how many? They should have just remodeled. They should have left it and remodeled it and not do a new one and declare it historic. I think Zavala is going to get away with doing that. But anyway. Gentrification. That’s what it is. It’s the other word. It starts with a G too. Greed. All that greed, that’s what’s happening. Same thing. Prakah: ​The more that we that we learn about Metz, I think the more nostalgic we get. And, you know, we've only been working with this information for a semester. And so it's so hard to imagine the individuals that have been involved with Metz for so long, almost a lifetime. You know, that nostalgia is there and the sadness that comes with having to get rid of such a historic building. Valdez: ​Yeah, it's truly sad. I, for one, worked there since the 70s, not on a regular basis, but I go back and forth, you know, and do projects with the kids and classrooms, and the presentations, and play the guitar. Do a little Jimi Hendrix, of course. No, I didn't do that. But anyway, I used to when I was a kid. 8 �But yeah, and well, of course. Sanchez was something else. You know that school. They kind of stripped the culture from it. You know, this was a very cultural site. You know, they had a great library. I mean, great exhibit in the library and a lot of, you know, “​alebrijes​”?​ You know, those figures that they make in Mexico that they decorate like little animals and big animals and all that with a lot of painting, a lot of little designs. And they had a lot of pottery and things that were pretty special, special stuff, very cultural. And of course, the murals and all that; we had several in there. Anyway, they've taken all that out. Just stripped it and made it pretty sterile. They’re going to leave my mural up, by the way, because they were going to take it down and they told me, “come get it because we're going to get rid of it.” I don't know if you're familiar with the mural that was in the library. According to one of the dudes that was working on it—I don't know if he's an architect or just one of the contractors—he told me that “we actually redesigned the school to accommodate your mural because a lot of people were up in arms, you know, complaining about it and saying that they had to save it, they couldn't get rid of it and all that.” I was going to take it and put it in storage, you know, because it's not easy to put something that big up anywhere. I don't know where I could put it. But anyway, I think we're getting off topic here and you've got to focus on Metz. Burniston: ​You know, I'm so glad to hear that they're preserving that mural in Sanchez. I know Rishika and I are really looking forward to typing up some of our notes and finishing up our exhibit. Like I said, it should launch tomorrow. We can definitely send you the link as soon as it does. And if there's any alterations or things we’ve misrepresented in our write ups, please don't hesitate to shoot me an email or you should have Rishika’s email as well. But we've really enjoyed talking to you and thank you so much for making the time. Valdez: ​OK, if that happens, I'll just show up with picket signs. Yeah, I like that one. I've been doing that for so many years so maybe that'll be the way I get the message across. I'm just kidding. Thank you very much. Prakash: ​Thank you so much. Burniston: ​Thank you very much. Valdez​: Appreciate it. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Rishika Prakah, Mary Margaret Burniston Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Raul Valdez Location The location of the interview Zoom Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 12/ 7/2020 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Raul Valdez Oral History Transcript Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Description An account of the resource Oral history with Raul Valdez Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mary Margaret Burniston, and Rishika Prakash Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 12/7/2020 art arte oral history raul valdez https://metzarchive.org/files/original/138dfad01ca2a676d4b11b0f8eaea78e.pdf f2ff07bbb717b65509e81d9308d61dde PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Lupe Ramos November 9th 2020 Dylan [00:00:24] At what point were you at Metz Elementary, and what was your role there? Lupe Ramos [00:00:32] I was at Metz Elementary from 1983 to the fall of 1996. I was a secondgrade teacher, I moved there as a second-grade teacher, and then I became a first-grade teacher. I felt like I wasn't doing enough in second grade. And I wanted to go help to see what was going on in first grade. Some of us think that way and we think, OK, we're not getting the children wherever they need to go, I want to see if I can make an impact going down to the first grade. And then I was the first-grade teacher. I was a teacher until the Metz and Sanchez communities got partnered with a consultant. To they asked a consultant, Stephen Jackson from San Antonio to help write a grant, and this would say as a result of meeting with the community, that the community was the one that wanted a dual language program there at Metz. So they got together with people from the Sanchez community and the Metz community. And this person, Stephen Jackson, wrote a grant for them and for a dual language Montessori program at both campuses. And so then I took a position as a coach or mentor for the teachers, and so I was at Metz until then. So it was 13 years. Dylan [00:02:13] OK, just to understand, that grant was written in the fall of 1996, or was that that year prior? Lupe Ramos [00:02:21] I think it was written two years prior to that because it took like a whole year of planning and writing the grant, waiting for it to be accepted. It was a federal grant. And so I remember was it must have been '94, '95 when we started the planning of that, and then we did get it, and then the process began. I didn't stay there. And I'll tell you later on, I think there's a question later on. I think I do address that later. I was there until 1996. Dylan [00:03:07] And kind of going back to the beginning of your time there, you first started as a second-grade teacher, was there anything in particular that brought you to Metz Elementary? Lupe Ramos [00:03:21] Yes, yes, and I'm going to give you a little bit of my background when I first got started, and this will have an impact, or at least have some kind of meaning, on my going to Metz. So when I first got hired in Austin Independent School District, they were trying to fulfill the number of minorities that they had at the different campuses because there were some campuses that were all Anglo, white teachers. And so when I got hired, they needed a lot. They needed minorities at Sunset Valley. So they placed me at Sunset Valley. So I was placed at Sunset Valley and when I got there, I was a brand new teacher and the principal there, it was her first year as a principal there. And her name was Johnny Boone, you know the Boone Elementary? Boone Elementary in Austin was named after her and her husband. And she was a wonderful and outstanding principal. But I got hired as a minority, right. So at that point, there was no bilingual education at Sunset Valley. But then we started bussing. So I guess I want to go back and speak a little bit about Johnny, but only because she was very instrumental in helping me become a good educator, someone that could take...she gave me lots of autonomy. She thought she could shape me up as the best teacher in Sunset Valley because it was her first year as a principal. And so she gave me lots of opportunities. I observed all over Austin and I did lots of projects with TEA as a result of Johnny Boone volunteering me to do those things. Lupe Ramos [00:05:21] But, then busing started in AISD and I don't remember the days that the bussing started... I have some things here, and I think it was 1981 or 1980 when bussing began in the district. So children from Blackshear were bussed to Sunset Valley and so I got a little taste of what I had been trained for. I actually had graduated from Texas Woman's University with a double major in Spanish and bilingual education. So those years in Sunset Valley, we hadn't been able to �use that experience until the children from Blackshear were bused into Sunset Valley, and there were African-American children and Latinos coming over. So the Latino population was bilingual or Spanish speaking. And that's when I tried -- and I was getting my master's degree at UT in bilingual education. So anyway, so I was there at Sunset Valley and then I did teach bilingual education for those children. They came from Blackshear because of the bussing. However, it wasn't like I had dreamt it would be, bilingual education, because those children that I was supposed to be teaching in my classroom were being taken out to be taught by a teacher assistant in Spanish. And I really disagreed with that part of bilingual education in Sunset Valley. Lupe Ramos [00:07:02] So my principal, Johnny Boone, who had been very supportive and very accommodating, and mentoring me as the new teacher, knew I was unhappy about the way bilingual education was being done in Sunset Valley. So she actually helped me. She called the principal at Metz at that point was Jose Flores and helped me get a transfer and I was so grateful. I'm very grateful to Johnny Boone because nowadays principals are heartbroken. You know, they're not too particularly... What is it? They don't give you, they don't open the door and say, OK, go ahead and go, and go to another campus. But then Johnny Boone, like I said, she was very accommodating and wanted me to be the best teacher I could be, and she knew that I was unhappy at Sunset Valley and was able to get me a position at Metz. Lupe Ramos [00:08:00] So I transferred to Metz during the bussing era here in AISD, and that's how I became a bilingual teacher at Metz Elementary. So the first years I was a second-grade teacher at Metz Elementary. When I got there, the same year I got there, a person very popular, a teacher, there was a bilingual advocate in AISD was moved to Metz and she asked for a transfer from Govalle to Metz. I became a good friend of hers. So, she and I were pretty instrumental in helping Metz have a good bilingual program, because we were very... we had learned a lot, and because I was going through my master's program in bilingual education, I felt like I had the means and the knowledge to look forward to helping build a good bilingual program, wherever I would be. And it happened to be at Metz. So that's how I got to Metz. I'm sorry, it's a long story, but I don't know... I just feel like Johnny Boone and then some of the people I met at Metz really helped me become a good bilingual teacher. Dylan [00:09:25] No yeah, I mean, one, it's great that Johnny Boone, took the time to help you grow as a teacher, and then at the same time was able to see that, you know, you would be better off somewhere else. I mean, I just -- you're right. I can't think of seeing that in a lot of places. What was I going to ask... I'm sorry that was a lot of information. Lupe Ramos [00:09:56] *laughs* A lot of information just to get to Metz. But that's what happened. Dylan [00:10:03] And so who was this other bilingual teacher, if you don't mind me asking? Lupe Ramos [00:10:07] Yes, this other bilingual teacher was Sheila Guzman and actually, I learned a lot from Sheila. What I had learned from Johnny Boone was to observe teachers, any master teacher, right, at that point were called master teachers. But yes, so I used to go and visit. We became very good friends because we were the first -- we were new at Metz. So we got to know each other very well. And I would visit her classroom a lot because she taught third grade and I taught second grade. So I became a very good friend of Sheila's and then Sheila also introduced me to Montessori. And the reason I'm saying that is because when I left Metz it was when we had gotten that grant to start the dual-language Montessori program, and I think both Sheila and I were very instrumental in trying to find a better program, not just a very good bilingual program, but also something that would bring a very innovative program, which would be the Montessori education into the public schools. But that really didn't go well because we were way ahead of our time. I �don't know if you know now, AISD, just three years ago, started a Montessori program in the public schools. And people always say, oh, it's the first program we've had in AISD! But what they don't know if we had already started that, actually at two different campuses. But it didn't take off because people were not knowledgeable, we were not as... Well, and we talked, we went before the boards and explained to them what it was, and we tried to educate people and that didn't help us. So that didn't work back then. Dylan [00:12:06] If you don't mind, could you kind of go a little bit into what the Montessori program is, as a bilingual program, and what were the things that you, later on, realized you didn't necessarily like about it, if I understood that correctly? Lupe Ramos [00:12:23] Yes. Yes. One of the things that I, as a second-grade teacher, I had to teach place value and place value is the decimal system, right. And so it's very complicated to teach it and to help students learn it without having lots of manipulatives. And one of the things that I learned from Sheila -- through Sheila I met Joe Bruno and Steve Jackson, and those people had been Montessorians, they had a diploma in Montessori. And so I got to visit Joe Bruno's little school, which was like two little rooms. And I used to go and help. Well, let me backtrack a little. Sheila Guzman had her children, her two children in Montessori, and they happened to be in Joe Bruno's class. I used to visit Joe Bruno's class with Sheila because we used to go and help make materials for the classroom and because she was a parent there, they had to help with that. And so I used to visit his classroom and think, oh, my gosh, if I had these materials in my own classroom, I could teach the place value, and children would learn it! Now, my children at Metz were children that couldn't -- we were a Title I school -- they couldn't afford to go to a private school, like Joe's school. Lupe Ramos [00:13:45] So one of the things, our dream was to bring Montessori to the public schools because it was very costly to have our neighborhood children go to private school, right. So that was our dream. And actually, that's how we got Steve Jackson involved with the community, coming to visit, and coming to explain what Montessori is... and actually what Montessori is, in the public schools, is a program that has a lot more materials... and not so many more, because we were able to do it at Metz and Sanchez to some extent without getting too many materials. It cost a lot, but just by understanding and studying the philosophy, we could make it work with the public school resources. Lupe Ramos [00:14:34] And one of the things that's really good about Montessori and bilingual education, or dual-language at this point, is that it is so concrete, the materials are so concrete, to be able to teach a concept. If you're teaching volume, there are materials there that children work with and that they can interact with, that teaches them a better... It's a better way of teaching the concept of volume or length, of everything, the concepts in math, language arts. It's, you know, all of the different concepts that we teach in the public schools are what we call the TEKS, the essential elements. Those standards can be taught in a Montessori environment. But what we found was important to understand is that, if we were teaching in a bilingual classroom, any group that we taught a second language to, if we were teaching English to the Spanish speaking child or Spanish to the English speaking child, it was very clear with using the materials, all we needed to do was just change the label. And that's what's so good about Montessori in the dual-language setting. So that's what we liked about Montessori in the public schools. Lupe Ramos [00:16:00] Plus we visited back at Metz, those of us that were real new. And when we got to Metz, when I got to Metz, we started really promoting and wanting to go to conferences, the state conferences for bilingual education. We were not so much the Montessori until later, but just definitely the bilingual education part of our programs at Metz really were enriched because we had administrators, we had Jorge Rodriguez, who really also allowed us, gave us autonomy so we could be creative and so we could educate ourselves. And so we took it. We had that and I'm grateful that �we did have the administrator there who would allow us. Well, the first conference we went to, a friend of mine and I went to Gonzalo Barrientos to ask for funds to go to NABE, the National Association for Bilingual Education. And since then we started going to the state conferences, or to the local conferences so that we could get better educated on bilingual education. Dylan [00:17:22] So it sounds like you and Sheila Jackson were really pressing the envelope as to putting bilingual education not only in Metz, but y'all were kind of the forerunners of doing this in Austin ISD. It's crazy how, you know, it seems like that's kind of almost been written out. And it seems like at least now like you were saying earlier, how in the last three years, they finally implemented the Montessori method in Austin. Lupe Ramos [00:18:00] You know, last night I was watching a -- do you know Deb Palmer? Deb Palmer at UT, in the bilingual department. And it's kind of funny. I was watching her do a session last night and they talked about interrogating the power. We were really, Sheila and I were way ahead of our time then because we did that and we were -- looking back, I'm very grateful that we did have the people there, the principals that allowed us to go to conferences, and the administrators. There was a principal, our principal, Jorge Rodriguez at Metz. The principal at Allison Elementary, who was Mr. Hinojosa, Eugene Hinojosa, and the one at Sanchez, Ed Leo, were very instrumental in getting information for the teachers, so we could go and ask what was going on because they couldn't do it as principals. I guess maybe this would be the one thing you may not want to type or put somewhere. Lupe Ramos [00:19:11] But we were empowered with the information that we needed to know as teachers to interrogate the powers that be. We really wanted the best. At that point, we found out that our children, our Latinos, our minority children, even when we were bussing, were not getting as much. There were models of that other language. There were other things that we gained from bussing. But closing the gaps, it was not happening. So we wanted the best for them and we felt that dual-language was the best thing to do. Dylan [00:20:02] I don't mean to cut this conversation on bilingual education short, but tying that last bit together, if you would want to talk a little bit more about what you saw with the bussing at Metz Elementary... The time frame, what this looked like for people at Metz? Lupe Ramos [00:20:28] I guess at Metz, one of the things that I remember about the busing was that it really helped to integrate the children. It really brought teachers from west Austin to east Austin to see what was going on. It brought the parents over to the schools. I don't remember so much going to west Austin. I don't remember that. I don't know why. Maybe because we didn't go. But I do remember parents having PTA meetings at our campus. I remember that part. I remember that when the parents from other campuses -- Metz was paired with Barrington Elementary, from what I remember, I think that's correct. I don't know why, I keep thinking of Casis Elementary, so I don't know who Casis was paired with, maybe with Sanchez? I don't recall. Lupe Ramos [00:21:28] But I remember at Metz, we ended up with lots of almost like... Anglo teachers and Hispanic teachers working paired next to each other, but, that's what I also remember, that getting people that didn't understand the community at Metz and going back to the bilingual part of it, is that they didn't understand how to retain their first language, how to keep the child's first language, and how that's important for the culture and the community. They didn't understand those kinds of things. So I guess when I moved to Metz and we had that bussing, it was very obvious that there were people there at Metz that didn't understand the community, the language, the culture, and that we had to educate lots of people, families and everyone else. But I think that's how we were impacted, that even though we were integrated and we were having some wonderful things happening from the integration, we were also seeing the mismatch or the questions of why it �didn't seem like it was working for other reasons, you know, and people were not willing to change. I mean, they said they wanted the children in English. They wanted the children in English, you know what I mean? And when some of us were pushing back saying no, we can have it both ways. They can learn English at the same time that they're learning Spanish so that that's where the conflict was, going back to dual-language. Lupe Ramos [00:23:16] Bussing -- I think it was really, really good. Unfortunately, it stopped after a while, and then, Metz happened to be after bussing, Metz was one of the campuses, I think there were about 16 campuses that were called "Priority Schools". When there was a question about bussing or no bussing, I guess they voted, the trustees, so I don't remember how that happened. But when we went to no more bussing, I remember, there were promises about forming these priority schools, where they were going to give us an assistant principal, a counselor, and they promised us a lot of things which ended up not happening as priority schools, because later on after we went from bussing and then, no bussing, and then we became a priority school, and then we went to yearround schools. I went through all of that at Metz. It was kind of interesting because we went through different phases of things and how to improve the education at Metz, and nothing seemed to help. So I think that's why we thought, no, dual-language, learning two languages. And now that there's research on the brain and how that works, I think we were on the right track. It just didn't work. And I don't know what happened after I left there, but I have ideas. Lupe Ramos [00:25:10] But I think that's what I remember from bussing. I remember it was beautiful to see the children, the integration of the children, and the children learning from each other, respecting each other. I think there was more learning from the children themselves. It seemed like there were the adults that had all these preconceived notions and myths that continued. The principal at Reilly Elementary right now, actually, the last time I saw her, she said that she felt that during bussing is when she learned, that she loved that part as a child. And maybe that would be somebody that in the future, maybe you can talk to about bussing and how that affected children. I know that I don't remember after that how children were affected because it didn't help the achievement gap. That's one thing that it didn't help. Dylan [00:26:26] Thank you for the recommendation of that principal. I don't think we have anybody right now that was an actual student in these earlier decades. A lot of it right now is much closer to like the 2000s, the 1990s is probably the furthest back we go just because of the way that things get saved and everything. So thank you for that. I know you were saying all of these things were promised was that by AISD? Lupe Ramos [00:27:04] Yes, it was AISD. Sarah [00:27:07] Just to clarify, what was that person's name, who you suggested that we talk to in order to understand bussing? Lupe Ramos [00:27:14] It's Corinne Saenz signs and she's a principal at Reilly Elementary. Sarah [00:27:24] Thank you. Lupe Ramos [00:27:26] She'll tell you she was one of my students. So I do have students, I stay in touch if you want. I have a student teacher who was a student under me. So there's, you know, people that I can give you the names of, and you can talk to them. Dylan [00:27:43] All of that would be great. I just love how, even though you were saying you can't remember too much about what the kids got out of it, the fact that you remember that it was really �nice to see this integration happening. It's unfortunate that some of the teachers coming in didn't really share that ability, I guess is the best way to put it. Lupe Ramos [00:28:12] Well, it's like everything, right? People that go to another place and they think they see things differently. They feel like they have to change you instead of going over there and trying to see how groups can help each other and not necessarily change. You know, it's like a marriage. I know I hear people say, oh, I'm going to marry this guy, but I'm going to make him change how he thinks about this, or I'm going to make her change this way. It wasn't about that. It was about trying to live and educate children together and make the best of it, right, and help them score higher. And in whatever content we were teaching, it wasn't about who who still stays the same and who doesn't grow. But I don't know, it just seems that way. Dylan [00:29:08] That's the beauty of kids, being able to do that. Lupe Ramos [00:29:11] Well, what we noticed, too, though, when we had the bussing with it... Yes, we had children that we saw a difference in, not that I recall, in things like in the programs like the gifted and talented program. Yeah, there were more Anglo children in the gifted and talented program. But there were also in the school district, there were also programs specifically written for them -- we started asking, and I remember this, Sheila and I started asking, well, who is in the gifted and talented, who's representing our Latinos in the gifted and talented program? We got involved there. We wanted the test to be done in Spanish also, you know, so we started giving feedback as far as that was concerned. So that helped, I guess, looking back at the district as a whole, bussing also did get us to see what inequities were there, what inequalities were there. Right, as far as the curriculum, or the gifted and talented programs, and who was participating in things like that. Dylan [00:30:20] I didn't even realize that they wouldn't conduct the gifted and talented test in Spanish. It's crazy, I think, trying to do that in your second language, let alone your first. Last little question on bussing, just so that we can get over to what I think is a really interesting bit is just, do you remember the year that the bussing in Austin ended and if it was immediate in Metz? Lupe Ramos [00:30:56] It ended in 1987, so there must have been six or seven years of it, that's why, yeah, it seems like a long time, but really it was five or six years, something like that. Dylan [00:31:17] OK, thank you, it's all really helpful. Switching gears a little bit, we're looking forward to the 90s, the great Cesar Chavez visit at Metz Elementary. My first question is just, how did this happen? Lupe Ramos [00:31:37] Yes. And you know that that was in 1987. We stopped bussing in 1987. I have a picture of when César Chavez came to my classroom and on the back, it says 15 October 1987. So it must have been then, we stopped the bussing and then he came. I've been going over that again and again because I kept thinking, who was it? In the Metz community, we were pretty involved with well-known community advocates, OK, we knew Paul Hernandez, we knew Raúl Valdez, the muralist, we knew Gonzalo Barrientos, who was a very prominent person that we would invite to our science fairs. And we just felt that if we wanted to be noticed, and we wanted that, we wanted to find figures for the board of trustees. We would invite all of these high monkey monks, right, to our events because we wanted to be noticed, for the wonderful things that were happening in East Austin. Lupe Ramos [00:33:12] So the way I think it happened, what I remember, is that Raúl Valdez was a friend and knew Rebecca Harrington, who was a director of César Chavez United Farm Workers Union in Texas. And so I'm thinking that Raúl must have said that Rebecca wants to bring César �Chavez to Austin, and she asked Raúl who he recommended he come to, so I think either they must have asked -- because Metz and Sanchez were very competitive. We were two campuses that were close to each other. We both had bilingual teachers who were very strong, outspoken at the district level. And so I'm thinking that our principal must have said we want him to come to our campus and he volunteered Metz as a campus. So that was like the highlight of our, I mean, it's been like the highlight of Metz, right? I mean, we were very excited to be selected as a campus, where César would come. I was actually talking to clarify some things earlier today I called Alma Valdez, Raúl Valdez's wife, and I said, "Alma, do you remember did he go to Sanchez?" Because she was teaching, she started teaching at Metz and then transferred to Sanchez. She's the one that I worked with, and we both were resource teachers in our dual-language Montessori program. So she said, no, he didn't go to Sanchez. And we were wondering why? So I don't remember quite what happened because Metz and Sanchez, we're competitive, and we used to share some of the people that would come to perform at Sanchez, we would get them at Metz because the principals were were very good, good friends and they helped each other and supported each other that way. But no, César Chavez just came to Metz. I remember we were all so excited just to hear that a famous person was going to come to Metz, right. So we planned -- can I get into that? Is that what you asked me? Dylan [00:35:39] Oh for sure, yes, as much as you want. Lupe Ramos [00:35:42] Well, before César came to Metz, I knew it was a big deal. We planned it very well. We knew that the auditorium was very small. So we knew he could only meet with the fifth and sixth graders because it was a small auditorium. We knew that the little ones were not going to be able to join him. So some of us were very heartbroken because I was teaching first grade at that time. And I remember thinking, oh, no, I can't miss seeing César Chavez, right. So we made a map of how we were going to go around the school before he came and we were going to have a parade, which we did. We made a parade around the campus. We made a map, we prepared a map showing where the lower grades were going to be standing outside to greet him with banners. Oh, and that was the best thing we did, I still have pictures of all that. Anyway, so we all stood in the front of the school with big banners welcoming César Chavez and Raúl Valdez, actually, was called by Rebecca Harrington, and he was the one that took him to our campus, and our principal and our parents support person, who was Norma Saavedra, both were very instrumental in getting all this going and organizing this event. We all waited in front and welcomed César Chavez. Lupe Ramos [00:37:23] He came into the auditorium and gave a speech. At that time, César was really promoting his "No Grapes" video, on how eating grapes in California, not only was it affecting the farmworkers but also all the lands they were fumigating with pesticides everywhere, that children around those areas were being affected. The families, the women, they were pregnant. The children were being born without limbs. So this was a very harsh thing to see for children. But he did bring this tape and showed it off as part of his presentation. Lupe Ramos [00:38:24] But anyway, so as a result, so that was a big deal, César coming. And it was so nice to see him in person. It was so nice to see him that he just wears tennis shoes. It was just so nice to see that he's very human, that he was very down to earth, that he was just one of our people out there promoting the best for everyone, obviously speaking for the farmworkers and everything that wasn't being done for the farmworkers at that time was out in the open, and he was able to speak to us. And I think that's the kind of community Metz was at that point. Everything went, you know, we could be very honest and just say this, and it was very, very informative, educational. The children really got into it. I know that as a teacher of first graders, that then took them to second grade, we were able to do a lot with that subject, César Chavez. �Lupe Ramos [00:39:41] My class got to go before the board to ask the board of trustees here in AISD to stop serving -- now that I look at it, I don't know how I got away with this, well, but I know how I did, right, because the principal was not one that was coming and saying, "Lupe, you better not go to the board". So I was able to take it as far as I could. And I did, the children wrote letters to the board members and said, please, don't serve us any more grapes in the cafeteria. So it was very nice, I guess it was a very good lesson for children to be going in, advocating for themselves and others, and understanding how what they eat is important, and how healthy the food is that they're eating is important. So anyway, so we went before the board. I guess because I was one that continued to do things, Harrington stayed in touch with me and so then we were asked also to go the next time, César is didn't come, but the next time that they wanted us to go to support the farmworkers at the Capitol to talk about their rights, we were able to go to the Capitol, I took my class. And then the last thing we did for César Chavez in Austin was... [brief interruption] Lupe Ramos [00:43:05] So I was saying that the last thing that my class did, which was really, really memorable and significant, and as far as I'm concerned, I think it was very important for the children... It was that we walked down, one Saturday, we walked down what used to be 1st street, where César Chavez now is. We walked all the way down César Chavez asking the merchants, passing out little fliers saying, would you support the idea of changing the name of 1st street, to César Chavez? And then it happened. So we were very instrumental. My class was very instrumental in helping to change the name of 1st street in the east part of town, to César Chavez. And then we were able to get, when they changed the name, literally changed it to César Chavez, they brought to the classroom the name of the street. Except, I loaned some of my things that I had on César Chavez for some exhibit that someone was having and I didn't get it back, so I don't have it anymore. Maybe I'll come across it, I'm still looking for it. No, somebody took it from that display, so I don't have it. But my class was very instrumental in helping. I know lots of other people were doing the same thing, right. And the merchants, of course, made a difference because they agreed to the City of Austin changing the name to César Chavez. So that was good, I thought that was really, really nice. Dylan [00:45:07] I have a lot of things to say, but first, my apologies on the timeline, I got the César Chavez visit mixed up with something later on. I'm just happy that you seemed to keep getting principals and administration that let you do all of these things. Lupe Ramos [00:45:31] I know! Dylan [00:45:33] As you kept saying all of these things that you and your class were able to do. It's just, I can't imagine that now. Lupe Ramos [00:45:46] Yeah, you're right, yeah, but I think what helped me, and I guess looking back, I started getting very involved with the bilingual association with the state, and with different groups, and it really felt good to be able to have that... To be the voice without having to be asked not to do it, because I had already worked on making sure I knew the community, making sure I knew people in the board of trustees. So there were things that we worked on that I felt helped those other situations because they were not going to tell Lupe Ramos that she couldn't take her class before the board, and the community... Later on, there's a question about what I learned, oh, my gosh, if it weren't for the parents, right. The parents were there with me, right. The whole time that the children were with me, they came along. So it wasn't like I was grabbing the children from their parents and taking them along by themselves. No, it was community work. And some of them were by themselves because they trusted me. But some of them, yeah, the parents came along. �Lupe Ramos [00:47:02] For the César Chavez visit, I had a tape...Now someone made it into a CD for me to visit. So it's really nice to go back and see it. It's kind of, very nostalgic... I like to go back and visit that, I do have it in a CD now, so. Dylan [00:47:30] That's great that they had someone change that from a VHS tape to a DVD for you, that way you can keep it for longer. Just one thing I was wondering, as you were talking about this, was there any interaction with Austin ISD, in the lead up to this or afterward? Did they reprimand you or Metz, or they just didn't acknowledge it? Lupe Ramos [00:48:08] You know today, when I was looking at the notes, I thought it was kind of interesting that they didn't even.... when someone like César Chavez comes to a campus nowadays, there's people from central office, they get involved, and come, and are part of something that big. I don't remember that the area -- I don't know, we maybe didn't have area superintendents. I don't know, maybe we were smaller. We were a smaller district, definitely, but, I don't remember that there was positive feedback or negative feedback, but I do remember that at that point it was hard, even during the bussing and looking at the things that have happened at Metz, the racism has always been there. I always felt that there was that racist, that when we would go and ask for something before the board, it was east Austin children, east Austin teachers asking for something that was not going to happen. You know, had it been somebody from west Austin that went and asked for no grapes, maybe they would have done it. Unfortunately, that's how it was then. Lupe Ramos [00:49:31] But, yeah, I'm glad that they did leave us alone. And I think because I was a minority teacher, I don't think they would have done anything because I guess I felt like I could also say, you're discriminating against me, and it's very obvious. So I'm thinking that's why they didn't reprimand me for taking the children to the capital to walk for the farmworkers and, you know, that kind of stuff. So, I'm thinking that's why they didn't do anything to us. Dylan [00:50:10] That's just so odd. I just would expect them to have said something, you know, but I mean, I guess I'm glad they didn't say anything. Lupe Ramos [00:50:21] No, yeah! Dylan [00:50:48] Jumping into talking about that transition from old Metz to the new one, do you have any thoughts on that, that you can remember, just like what was the feeling as that happened? Lupe Ramos [00:51:06] The transition between the old Metz and the new Metz? Dylan [00:51:08] Yes. Lupe Ramos [00:51:14] That that was a long, long, long process. I remember wanting a new school, but some of us knew that, I will say some of us, some of us really loved the furniture, really loved what was in the old Metz, right it was all antiques. It was beautiful wood, wooden chairs, wooden tables, wooden desks for teachers. It was those beautiful antique items that you think... I mean, I still have a table, but that's because I do have some things from Metz. But let me tell you, the reason I have them and this is something that, it doesn't matter who hears this, because the principal when we came to the new school, she didn't want us to bring in anything old. She didn't want any old stuff in the new school. So I thought, great, I can keep...We asked for permission, right. But we did keep... Like I have an antique table. I have a brick from Metz that says... I have it right here...This is because Metz did mean a lot to us. Here's a brick that says Metz till 1990, I guess. And, you know, I use it as a weight, a paperweight. �Lupe Ramos [00:52:41] But yeah, we went through so much...Well, we went through a lot at Metz, at the old Metz, things like pipes bursting and the ceiling...I was down in the lower level. Metz was an old, old campus that had two levels. And so, one time when there were plumbing issues in the second level, they were right above my classroom, there was a pipe that burst in the restrooms upstairs, and the ceiling came down on us. I mean, we weren't there. Luckily, we were not in the classroom. But those are the experiences that we had when we were in the old school, that some of us felt that they should just fix it. But we knew that it would be like patchwork happening, right. So we were excited when the school district decided to give us a new school. And that's the other thing that happened is that the community was pretty strong at that point, that when they went to ask for a new school, we got it. Lupe Ramos [00:53:57] So there was a plus. There was good. The only thing that wasn't good was that for the school to get built the next two years, we had to travel all the way to Webb Middle School. Everyone had to travel all the way north on 35 every morning for two years. And then we came back to our new campus and we loved it, we love the new campus, the new campus was constructed by an architect I think it was a Latino, and we were excited that that was the case. And I don't know the name of the guy. I wish I did. Lupe Ramos [00:54:41] Because, one of the things that happened when we came back was that we enjoyed the new campus, there was a garden area. There were lots of things that we were able to ask for: a computer lab, a little garden in the middle of the campus. You know, there were so many features to it that we loved. The only thing, sadly, was a week before we got the new school is that we walked the streets, especially with Norma Saavedra, who is a parent's support person, and some of the very active community members like Lorraine Camacho, who was our "grandma" Camacho. I don't know if you know that the community center close to the lake, to Town Lake, that was built after her and her name, it was Grandma Camacho Center. She was very instrumental in helping us to promote, you know, the buying of the lands. Lupe Ramos [00:55:53] We had to walk the streets to ask those people to sell. So they would open up more space for the Metz school. And that's what's for me, is very sad now that they would tear it down because it was so hard for those families to give up those homes that they had had there. To the district, who in some cases didn't give them enough money for their homes, and they were willing to sell it to AISD so they could extend the area for the new school. I think that's, of a lot of things, that's one of the things that are kind of sad for me, that they would be getting rid of Metz, because it took a lot for us to walk the streets and to ask those property owners to please sell so we could have the new school. I think that's kind of disappointing, in a way, right, that you worked so hard to get a school, and yet it's not even -- what, it was built in 199-. I mean, it's not that old. I think that's why I just felt like they shouldn't be tearing it down, or whatever it is they do. I was hoping if they did anything to use it as offices for AISD, you know, because it's not that old. Lupe Ramos [00:57:24] The other thing is that when we came back to the new school, and this is something that you ask about later on, some of the memories... The best memories were coming back to Metz and preparing these tiles. The architect had built the school in such a way that he left some space up at the top so that we could make some tiles, every child and every person involved in the community, that wanted to come and make a tile. First, it was the students, the staff, and then anyone else that wanted to come. We made some tiles that we decorated beautifully. And also, we were very specific about not putting anything there that looked like graffiti, or that looked like some gang sign or any of that. But there were beautiful little tiles that went around the school and we were so proud of coming back and having this beautiful school built for us, that when we put those tiles, we all made a big thing about it. We felt so good and proud. And yet, now, it's like the soul of this school getting torn off...I don't know, it's just kind of sad to think that we worked so hard to put up those tiles and to look for each tile, because once you made your tile, you had to look to see �where yours was. Because the tile is is made with paint, and then they have to cook it, and then when it comes back out, you might not recognize it, right. So to look for your tile was hard, and to find it. So it's kind of sad for that reason. That was one of my things that I feel like it's going to be sad because we all had a little piece to give to Metz, now it's being torn off or taken away from us. Dylan [00:59:36] I had a chance to visit the school in August, and that was one of the things that really got me, which was seeing all those tiles. We tried to take a picture of, I think, most of the ones that you could see on the outside, to at least have a few. There will be a good amount of them, I hope, in the final exhibits because I mean, those are just, you know, they're Metz, that's what they are. I also can't believe that whenever you said that they would bus you to Webb Middle School, I guess that's just so far... I'm sorry, I was really surprised by that. Lupe Ramos [01:00:28] You know what, it was a middle school, so we would, you know where my classroom was? It was the place where they had drama. And so I had a stage, and I was very creative with the little space. So they put us in different... the classrooms were not made for an elementary school. So they just put us wherever we fit and we had to make the best of it while we were there. Mine was one where there was a stage. So, I had to get the children to not jump onto the stage and jump off. It was interesting, but we made the best of it, you know, and getting up every morning, Grandma Camacho would go on the bus in the morning with us... It was so nice to see her getting on the bus with us in the morning to monitor the children. So they would be safe. We wanted the community -- so it took a lot to go back and forth, ride for two years, a lot of trust. We trusted the district to take us there safely because they were getting on i35. We had we were having to go down i35 for two years. You know, I don't know that any other campus has ever...I don't know, I don't know how T.A. Brown or how some other campuses just recently have done some kind of adjustment while there are new schools being built. But at that time, it was different for us. Dangerous in a way. Dylan [01:01:57] It's just something you wouldn't;t have expected. You wouldn't have wanted to do it if you didn't have to. Lupe Ramos [01:02:04] Right, because we were taking little bitty ones, little bitty once all the way across town. The same thing with the bussing. When we were bussing the children we always had an issue with, and I think this happened a lot, it seemed like the young ones, I don't recall, with bussing, it was I think it was the four-year-olds through the second graders, the four-year-olds through the seven-year-olds, were bussed from one place to the other. And it just seemed like the little ones were the ones being bussed at some point was. So it just it was unfair, but it happened. Dylan [01:02:52] Thank you for going for giving us a picture of what was going on at this time at that change of the school. It seems like a very important point in Metz history that it's just so good to have another perspective on it, especially someone that was working there at the time. I just want to go through, just because we have a few more minutes, a few of the other less intense questions that we have towards the end. I guess first of all, what's something about Metz that people wouldn't know that you think that people should know? Lupe Ramos [01:03:33] Well, one of the things when I first met went to Metz and I would go to meetings, teacher meetings, professional development, staff development. I know that people would ask me, teachers would ask me, where are you teaching? When I would say Metz, they would say, oh, I would never go there. And to, you know, to not understand that it was the safest, the best place to be, where I learned from parents. I learned a lot about parents and partnering with parents. Because the families were so down to earth, they'd cook you dinner, I mean, they'd cook me a taco. If I was there until after five, they would knock on the door and say, here's a taco or something. You know, it was always very, it was the best as far as the community, the partnership with the parents. �You know, we did home visits then because we felt very comfortable. It wasn't what people made east Austin... It wasn't dangerous. It wasn't what east Austin was made to look like. So, that's one thing I learned is that it was a very homey place, I could smell, of course, I'm Latina, right. So, I mean, leaving this campus at five o'clock and smelling the tortillas that people were cooking, or I could smell the fideo or whatever, it was good. Lupe Ramos [01:05:14] So I think the best thing is that Metz was the community where I learned a lot, you know, from parents, they were very giving. I do have some things I wanted to share, I had written some things. You know, when I needed, I was part of the Ballet Folklorico. When I was at Metz, the parents would make me, they would help us all, they would cook beans where we were making enchiladas. When we wanted to take the children to Sea World, they would help me make the costumes for the Ballet Folklorico. They were so giving. It was a giving community. Dylan [01:06:09] Would you say that the interaction with the community and with those parents is one of those big things that impacted you while you were working at Metz? And if there were any other big takeaways that you learned from your time in Metz Elementary? Lupe Ramos [01:06:30] Yes, I think I learned a lot. As a teacher, I learned that I should not retain children. I never, after that because I had an experience with family where I was going to retain a child, I didn't know any better. I was I had taught six years maybe there, or maybe, yeah, about four years maybe, and I wanted to retain this child that was in second grade. He must have been my first year there because it was a second-grade teacher. And I remember that family telling me and educating me about it. And I did a lot of research. Come to find out if I had retained that child -- I didn't retain the child because the parent and the child were telling me, "Miss Ramos, please just give us a tutorial program in the summer or whatever," and I ended up doing that. Later on, I learned the research shows that retaining a child is the worst thing one can do as an educator. So that's what I learned because I never retained another child after that. And I really learned that from them. Lupe Ramos [01:07:35] I also learned that. I learned, like I had mentioned earlier, I learned about racism because I learned that when we went before the board, things were not always... They would never go our way. And so I learned about that. And I learned about broken promises, because when we were there, the priority schools, we really didn't get everything that we needed to get so we could be successful. Yes, we did have back then as priority schools, we were given 15:1 students, supposedly 15 to each teacher. However, because there were always more children than teachers, we didn't stay to the cap of the number of children. We also weren't given all the personnel that was supposed to be there when we were priority schools. So, yes, so there were lots of broken promises that I learned that that happens and that, if you're in East Austin, not everybody listens to you. I learned about that divide, that we still talk about between the east Austin schools and the west Austin schools. And I think that that as an educator helped me understand that I needed to be better educated. So I was. I had just gotten my master's degree, but I went for more education. I went to get my diploma in Montessori. I went to study as a national board-certified teacher. I got certified there. So it did motivate me to do that because the west Austin schools had the better teachers. They didn't have all the new teachers. They had teachers that were all better educated. So we tried to do that at Metz, too. So that helped me do more for myself. Dylan [01:09:49] My last question really is, is there anything that you want us, especially that maybe we haven't had a chance to touch on, something you just really want to emphasize again, that you want us to highlight in this exhibit and in the narratives that we're trying to get to, that would help the Metz community and the East Asian community? Is there anything really, in particular, you want us to highlight? �Lupe Ramos [01:10:29] Well, now, with all this other stuff, the César Chavez coming and going, there are there's one thing that I hope happens that doesn't get destroyed when they do tear it down. That's the one other thing that I was able to help with was, Raúl Valdez, the muralists that I spoke of that helped get César Chavez to Metz years ago... He came after we got the new school and asked for a teacher volunteer to help him with the kids in order to help him create a mural there, paint a mural at Metz, and that's the other thing that I hope they keep intact. If you walk into Metz Elementary, did you say you had gone to Metz Elementary? Did you happen to see the mural? Dylan [01:11:29] The one on the top of the ceiling? Yes, it's beautiful. It's amazing. Lupe Ramos [01:11:33] It's called "Para Nuestros Padres". That's the title that I remember. I don't know, Raúl will say that, too. I wish you could interview Raúl because one of the things that I hope happens is that that mural is not destroyed. You know, the way Raúl works at schools is that he gets a group of students. He guides them along on what they would like to paint. They come up with a theme. It's all this long process of working with children and coming up with a mural and painting the mural. I still have pictures of the children when he had the scaffolds up where we would get up and paint. I was able to paint some of those little flowers and things. It was beautiful to see that type of community work. And it's unfortunate... I hope his mural gets salvaged. I hope it doesn't get destroyed. So if there's any way that you'll have any input on this part, I hope that you can help with that because... It's just a waste of, again, it's just like taking a part of a beautiful thing and just tearing it down, it doesn't make sense, and it's you know, it's just like destroying art, any art. Lupe Ramos [01:13:00] And so, I know that when we first got to Metz, there was a beautiful mural in the auditorium. It was beautiful, it was a mural that lots of artists in Austin, in East Austin, had gotten together and painted. One day an art teacher that we had there... And I know the principal could have and I'm glad he didn't... But he was very upset, and he said, I would have done something to that teacher because one day, one weekend, she went in there and painted over the mural. And so we were very, very devastated by that. And this is exactly the same issue now, but at a different level, because now it's still there and hopefully we can preserve it. So if anything, if y'all have anything to do with helping to salvage that, it would be wonderful. At least something will be saved, you know, so, I would really appreciate it. Lupe Ramos [01:14:09] But as you can see, Metz has a lot of history, did you know that it's in Unsolved Mysteries that it has... Dylan [01:14:18] Oh, the ghosts. Yes, I think we have a few things that we have been collecting that they bring it up. It seems like everybody has a little bit to say about it. Lupe Ramos [01:14:33] Yeah. Dylan [01:14:33] So, again, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for everything you've been able to tell us today. Lupe Ramos [01:14:42] Oh, the other thing I have to say, if there's a way... OK, so after I left Metz, there were things that I salvaged myself because they were throwing them out and because I had friends that were still there, and when I went, there were still things like this, that César Chavez gave to the campus. They were behind closets and hidden away because supposedly it was political because the new principals didn't know how to display it. If there's a way that you can get me someone where I can donate these to, for them to be preserved by someone at UT, some, I don't know, a museum here in Austin. I don't know where to donate these things because they're not mine.. The only reason I salvaged them was because they were throwing them behind filing cabinets, they were put away in closets when I went to visit one time. I had friends there, so I found �these things and I just could not leave them there. So I'm glad I have them. But these are the things that César had left here. Dylan [01:16:00] Yes, I will. Yes, there are a few people and a few places that have some stuff already and they have physical objects already from Metz that I think it would be really good to incorporate that into. And I will get in touch with you this week about maybe where that can be. And then just some questions we'll have about some of the other items that you were showing us, and if there's any way that we could try to get a digital scan for copies. Lupe Ramos [01:16:37] Yes, that would be nice. The more you think, yes, that would be good, because I have pictures of the children having gone or letters of the children having gone before the board. Little things. I have a file of things that have to do with César Chavez's visit. Dylan [01:16:54] Well, thank you so much again. That's all I can really say. Thank you for doing this, thank you for contributing. And we will keep in touch in the next week or two and we'll be sure, once we get this to a more complete state, we'll be sure to send you all of the stuff about it so that you can see it, you can share it around with everyone else that you know, and all those students that you were saying that you still keep in touch with. Again, thank you. Lupe Ramos [01:17:31] Yes. No, no, thank you. Sarah [01:17:33] Thank you so much. � https://metzarchive.org/files/original/c9a2d011a25ef51419806f396f0bb32a.jpg b6bd5898af2c982750b62cb2082dc5da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral History Interview with Lupe Ramos Transcript transcripción transcript